The Mystery of America’s Stonehenge: Ancient Secrets REVEALED!

Speaker 2 (00:00.906)
New Hampshire, the American Stonehenge. I had never heard of this and I love all these mysteries. I was just in your neck of the woods last fall. It's absolutely beautiful in New England in the fall. I would highly recommend that. And yet I had no idea that this existed. And now I'm angry that I missed out on the opportunity to stop by and meet you guys in person. But how cool is this? America's Stonehenge.

And it's, me get the, I got so many tabs open now, guys, with all the technical issues that I forgot your webpage. Let's see, and it took you guys off of the, oh my gosh, chaotic here. Hang on. Yeah, you're still here. Okay, good. Hang on. I'm gonna end this here. Hang on. Bear with me, gentlemen here. This is a disaster. Hang on a second. Okay. So, all right. So we're still good on StreamYard there. Okay, so.

There's still an air so that's good.

Speaker 2 (00:59.756)
All right, so America Stonehenge. what's like is that you're right up there near Salem, New Hampshire. Is that right?

Correct, yeah, we're in North Salem, New Hampshire. So just kind of, yeah, right over the border from Mass.

Shame on me. I missed out on the Salem witch stuff, which there's plenty to do up there I missed out on you guys. I guess I'm just gonna have to get back up to the northeast and And stop by and introduce myself. Okay, so How cool is this America's Stonehenge? I gotta point out something that stood out immediately for me when I became familiar Thanks to Ed McCrae last week mentioning you guys I gotta point out it's just too ironic that

Your last name is Stone. Come on.

I think it's preordained.

Speaker 2 (01:48.544)
And pre-ordain, yeah, so I don't know, where do we want to begin with this? Like, how did you guys, how did it end up in your family, I guess is my first question. And then we can show pictures and talk about the actual site itself. But take us back and give us the history there of the site.

Well, I'm a second generation and my son Kelsey is the third generation. And I think you met my granddaughter a little while ago before she's fourth generation. Yeah. So it really starts 70 years ago this year in the summer of 1955. My dad had been in the Coast Guard up in Labrador back in the early fifties. And he had an interest in history his whole life. And come to find out he was right near where the Viking settlement of Lonzo Meadow is located up in Newfoundland, which we visited

about a year and a half ago. And he was here just a little too early before the discovery of it. And after the Coast Guard, worked at AT &T and then Bell Laboratories in Massachusetts. He was an engineer. And just on a Friday night in the summer of 1955 at 730, there's a show out of the biggest radio stations. And it still is today, I believe, in New England. It's out of Boston. And the show is called Yankee Yarns. And the host was Alton Hall Blackington, a native of Maine.

And at 730, he did a little show on Friday nights talking about different New England things, you know, and the thing they talked about that night was a site we call America's Stonehenge. My dad had never heard of it before. He only lived about seven miles from this place, and he was just blown away by the whole show talking about these ancient stone ruins just down the street from him. And after the show, a few days later at a barbershop in the town of Derry, New Hampshire,

He was just waiting to have his hair done, picked up a magazine and he's just flipping through it. And all of sudden he sees one of the theme articles. It was all about this place that he heard on the radio, but now he's got photographs of it. And that really kind of did it for him. He asked the barber whose name was Warren Heywood, hey, can I borrow this? And he goes, well, how old is that magazine? He goes, well, it's 1952. It's been sitting here for three years. And he goes, ah, you can have it. And the magazine was called New Hampshire Profile.

Speaker 1 (04:05.664)
In Inuit we have another magazine called Yankee Magazine, which we've been in before. But it's kind of a similar format, know, stories about New Hampshire places, historical places, places to dine, know, visit and all that. And my uncle on uncle's house that following weekend on a Saturday, about 10 people gathered as they usually did on Saturday nights. And again, it's only about eight, seven or eight miles from where they, where the museum is today. And they're playing cards. He passed the magazine around to everybody at the table and they're

having some beer, you know, and probably just smoking back then or whatever. And nobody knew what the site was either, you know, until it went to my aunt and uncle, my mom's sister and her husband. And when they looked at it said, wait a minute, this is the place we used to bicycle to back in the 1930s while we were dating. And they would ride their bikes down here about seven or eight miles and go up there and picnic. So my dad's next question is, hey, do know where the place is? Can we find it? I want to see this place.

Yeah, so that Sunday they went off, left us, my cousin, he's a few months older than me, so we stayed with grandparents, I guess. And they drove around North Salem and they eventually found a road that looked familiar and they parked the car at the bottom and they walked through the woods about a half a mile up the hill and they found the place. And my dad climbed under the chain link fence that's still there today to protect the main site.

Kind of trespassing, you know, and so he gets underneath there and he disappears for quite a while. And my aunt and uncle, my mom just stayed outside going, where is he? And how, and when he did reappear, they said, how do you, what do you think? And he goes, this place is mind boggling. It's amazing. And then he got off to talking about, know, maybe getting involved with maybe some sort of research study, the site, maybe even open it to the public. And at that time, my dad was going to college. He was an AT &T engineer, as I mentioned, and he had just built a house.

up in Derry actually built it themselves. So my sister was on her way too. My sister was going to be born in 56, you know, little while long later. And my mom said to him, you got rocks in your head. You want to do something like that. And he did because he pursued it even more, know. And so that's how we got involved. And we opened the site up in 1958. It took three years to get that part of it going, the business going. And so we just had our

Speaker 1 (06:24.236)
Well, I guess we're going on our 67th anniversary coming up. But it was 70 years ago this summer, though, that we actually got involved with it.

cool is that. You know what else is cool about this is that you were able to seamlessly mix in the phrase, pack the car.

We're

I could hear it myself too. We're only 40 miles from Boston, know, so it kind of rubs off across the border here. And Kelsey actually works in Massachusetts even closer to Boston.

Yep. The accent sometimes.

Speaker 2 (06:57.614)
So cool.

Yeah, and on the other side we have the main accent, which is a different accent altogether.

Okay. I like it. love it up there. no. Yeah. I'm from Atlanta, Georgia. So, know, one of the terms that I stumbled on as I was reading up on America's Stonehenge and all of the stuff up there. And we're definitely going to talk about that. I'm going to try to get these pictures to show up on the screen. Who the hell knows if they'll actually show up. But the term was, what was it?

Texas actions going on down there

Speaker 3 (07:11.982)
Well...

And that explains it.

Speaker 2 (07:32.512)
Archaea astronomy or Archaea? was it? That is that's a cool. Did I even pronounce it? What is it exactly? It's a

Archaeoastronomy.

Archaeostronomy, yeah, I love that!

Yeah

It goes back to the 60s and in England they called it Astro-ochaeology. I think they've all converted over to Ocho astronomy, archaeology with astronomy kind of you know blended together I guess.

Speaker 2 (07:58.978)
Yeah, no, so it's a site that's open to the public and how big, before I get the structure on the screen here, how large is the area there around all of the structures, I should say.

So yeah, the main complex is about one acre where all the chambers and our main structures are. And then we have our monoliths, our alignment stones that go out to, what was it, about 20 acres?

roughly? Yeah, 15 to 16 acres. pretty much. Yeah, yeah. And then outside of that with 90 more acres of stone walls and other features like serpent walls, quarry sites. So it's about 110 acres site, just a little bit under 110 acres.

Okay, all right, well, let me see if I can get some of these pictures up here. Of course, they're no longer in the same order as when I talked to you before the show because why would that work?

I'll quiz them.

Speaker 2 (08:54.435)
How's this look? That's a good overview,

It is, yeah, that's a good one. OK, yeah. I'll describe. Yeah, that's basically the main site that Kelsey just mentioned. right in center is a stone slab that is referred to as a table or sacrificial table. It sits on four legs and it weighs about four and a half tons. If you look down at it, it kind of looks bell shaped. And it actually came from a position below where the photographer took this picture about 40 feet away.

weighs about 163 pounds per cubic foot. So you can do the dimensions, come up with a weight with actually weighing it, you know? And so it's about 9,000 pounds. And we believe it's a ceremonial table. You can see two monoliths on either side of it, you the single standing stones. They're of on both sides of it there. it's in a very tight area. And what you can't see in the picture is a biggest chamber we have on the site is called the Oracle Chamber. It's just to the left of the table. And...

Hmm. I think it's nothing. wants to play nicely today. I'll get more pictures up here. But yeah, I saw what you're talking about with the the slabs either side and and you refer to it as a possible sacrificial table. Is that are we just assuming? Is there any evidence that says that's exactly what that was? Or are we just having to, you know, kind of guess on that?

Nothing

Speaker 3 (10:21.102)
So I think it's somewhat the similarity of other sites around the world. Around the main sacrificial table itself, it actually has a groove that kind of follows the outside dimensions of the table itself. It's roughly the size of a person or a larger animal. The groove actually comes down, it drains down to one spot. mean, there's been some speculation that from, I guess,

on.

more on the critical side if it was something more modern like a cider press or something like that. But the design of it doesn't really fit how those would be assembled. It doesn't make a whole lot sense for how that's built. Usually those are different shape.

Yeah, cytopress or a lie stomp and making soap. Yeah. So it's possible, as Kelsey mentioned, as a sacrificial table, but maybe a ceremonial table and even altars and churches, you know, are still there today. Symbolic of, I guess, sacrifice, if you will, you know, and that chamber is pretty cool, too. That one in the background is where the table is way up towards that wooden platform. But you're looking at a chamber we call the self-facing chamber and it faces true self.

The whole site is orientated by the way to north south east and west the structures with With an exception called the beehive, but that chamber Might actually be a profile of an animal. We've been looking at it since we were there in 50. did and Until about a few years ago. I didn't think much about the site that chamber having anything any other shape other than it was just a

Speaker 1 (12:01.646)
chamber, you know? Well, people, visitors go, do you see a turtle shape to this structure? you saw it. Okay. excellent. I didn't want to put it, put the words in your mouth, but it kind of slipped out. And so I went up one day, I guess in 2022 or 21 with my pups, because we, Kelsey and I, we, have our separate homes and we lived on the west side of the property, which worked out beautiful, you know, cause it's in our backyard, basically. We bought, we're in a cul-de-sac.

But I would go up with my dog every night and I still do walking there, check on the site, make sure everything's good up there. No, nothing's going on bad or, people up there. Anyway, and I just love walking up there. And I went up there and I took some photographs and I stood back. It was in the summer, I think of 2022. And I'm standing back looking at it going, oh, now I see what they're talking about. Maybe the head on the left, the lintel stone over the chamber might be the belly, two legs on either side. And to the very right is like a little tail.

And it looks kind of like a like a turtle. And there are a couple of other turtle things on our site, Yeah, so it could be. Turtles are in other places, other sites around. You'll see I mean, there's a site in North Stonington, Connecticut. There's eight thousand structures in this one town in North Stonington that are very similar to what we have scattered all over thirty five thousand acres.

Yeah, that's not the only one, right?

I love this stuff.

Speaker 1 (13:25.678)
Some of the stonework look like turtles too and serpents, know snakes, but the turtle thing is there too and other places too. So, well, maybe something to it.

Yeah, OK. I want to talk about the dating of the site. First of all, I don't know how accurate carbon dating is, but just for the sake of this conversation, what's the earliest carbon dating there at the site?

Speaker 3 (13:57.154)
I mean, so the earliest one, think what we found that was by the north, star alignment.

Yeah outside the main site. Yeah

Yeah, so I mean, I mean, we have, yeah, there's kind of a wide range of dates. But I mean, it seems like the, you know, the ones that kind of we find on the main site tend to correspond closer to around 4000, 4000 years ago. There's a couple, there's a couple of outliers that that are older than that. You know, but when you're trying to, you know, piece it together, right, you try to and see where, know, where, where we're taking these samples from. And, you know, is it, you know, in relation to the site, because obviously, you know, carbon dating is an organic, you know, material you have to use.

So it's going to be like charcoal or something along those lines. So if you just go and grab it anywhere on it's really old, but it could have just been, there could have been some sort of random fire or lightning strike like that that could have caused that, right? it's, when you look at those things, you want to look at its relationship to where you find it as well. the ones that we found on the main floor.

No, I was just gonna say, I think you guys, if I read something correctly, there are new dating techniques that you guys are familiar with. Can you clue somebody like me into these new ways of dating things like this?

Speaker 1 (15:11.47)
Yeah. Well, we've used carbon dating going back to 67 and we just used the laboratory in 2023 again and the same laboratory in Massachusetts. So carbon dating has been around since 1950 and like Kelsey mentioned, some of the dates, 4,000 years. We have a couple of 3,000 year old dates on the main site and the oldest one out near the North Stone is actually 7,400 years old. It looks like that's a fire pit. So human activity on the hilltop is very important. When did that begin, you know?

But the OSL is another type of dating. It dates either sediment or rock. It's a light test, and it has to be done in a dock room environment. And our site was first done in 2020 by a Dr. Feathers from the University of Washington. He came out with a team. Two of the members were from Brookhaven National Laboratory on Long Island. And it was about a team of 25 people in total. And they took

four samples, two sediment and two rock. Unfortunately, the rock samples did not test for some reason. And that happened at another site in Connecticut near North Stonington. It's a Gunjee Whamp site, which is a 250 acre site with similar structures to ours, 250 acres right near the Navy base down there. And their sediment samples work down there, but the rock samples didn't work. And he kind of goes into why the rock samples sometimes fail, I guess. And it's very technical, so I didn't understand it that well.

But the two sediment samples, one was taken actually on the top of the Oracle chamber. And that's right behind the table you're looking at, that whole area behind the table where that wall is. It's kind of a facade. And that chamber runs true north and south almost like 27 and 1 feet. And then it runs east with a different branch about almost 20 feet.

It's shaped like the letter J, I think, if you took the roof off of it. And it's the biggest chamber on the site. It's concealed there. You can't see it in the photograph because it's hiding there. Well, on the top of that roof there where the grass is, they took a sample. that sample, what it does is it shows you a minimum date. So you take some dirt off the top of the roof. You date it. And you know that the chamber was built before the dirt came on top of the roof.

Speaker 1 (17:22.094)
And the dirt on the roof was surprisingly deeper than we thought. I had to do a T-probe before they showed up, like a month beforehand, just to find places that would be good candidates to test. And I went up there, it was 17 to 24 inches of dirt on top of the roof slabs of that chamber. I'm like, wow, that's pretty good. And they said, yeah, that is very good. And we can do a test there. And that date was 1550 AD. So it wasn't an ancient date, but it was pre-colonial.

And was about almost 200 years before this area was settled in the early 1700s, know, 175 years to 200. And because Dr. Feather says, the chamber was there before that dirt came, obviously, you so it's an older chamber than that. And down in the far distance is a chamber called the watch house. And it's an amazing structure. It's a satellite outlier chamber like Kelsey mentioned before. And we got our sample from

what would be a 2,550 foot serpent wall. And it was near the tail of that wall. And that there was up against the wall in 1400 AD. So again, the wall was there before the dirt. But any event, it's still before Columbus. So it wasn't built by some Yankee farmer as a lot of people. You know, crazy farmers built these things up there for no other purposes, you know, to make cider, like a cider mill or a lie, like the ivory soap factory.

It's not really a great location for it up on top.

Yeah, it's a big hill to go up it. So the OSL dating is being used and they did sites from New Hampshire all the way down to Virginia at some of these similar structures. And the dates are coming back pre pre colonial and you got

Speaker 2 (19:01.376)
I it when you hear that.

Yeah, it's more than just an opinion. You're like everybody has opinions and sometimes not based on anything other than I got an opinion, you know, but this is kind of based on science. And that's what we've been trying to do since the site's been under investigation for almost 90 years from the first archaeologist, William Goodwin. He was an amateur archaeologist and an antiquarian. And he's an amazing guy. But he started his work in 1937, actually, on the site. And we have photographs going back to 1900 of the site well before he started, you know.

That's it.

Yeah, that's a plaza area. It's kind of a plaza with structures you can see in the background, but also the structures off to the left side you can't see in the frame and to the left. And that area there, that chamber there is called the East West Chamber. It runs true east and true west. And it reminds me of what I've seen in France. They call them galley or gallery graves. And Kelsey's been to France too. They were used as burial tombs over there. But they were in Holland. They call them the Giants' Bed or Houdin Bidden.

And they always run east and west there too. And also Northwest Ireland, which I've been to. Kelsey hasn't been there yet, I guess, but he's been all over a lot of Europe. But I haven't been to the ones in Ireland. I've been to a lot of the sites like New Grange in Ireland, but they're in Ireland too. And they look so similar to that structure. It's amazing. And the orientation, the size, the shape is very, very similar on both sides of the ocean.

Speaker 2 (20:24.206)
Okay, since you kind of took us across the pond there, want to, something that stood out in the video that I watched of your presentation, Kelsey, actually, I want you to speak to your kind of discovery of maybe a connection between America's Stonehenge and the Stonehenge over in Britain.

Yeah

Speaker 3 (20:45.902)
Sure, yeah. So that was actually pretty much a completely accidental discovery there. So I think that was when I was working there, 2012. 2012, yeah. So I was doing kind of a little bit of a side project over the summer where I was trying to look at, know, just really more of like locally where our alignment's kind of run out to. was interested to see if there were any, know, there's, I mean, there's hundreds and hundreds of other sites in New England that are

Not to the scale that we're at, you know, still very interesting. And so I was kind of curious if, you know, maybe some of the local sites maybe have like an alignment to our site. And then eventually I kind of started drawing those lines out further and further. And I happened to look at the one that kind of went right across the Atlantic. It's off our summer solstice sunrise stone. And when I went across, it went right across southern England.

Is that the one there? Do I have the right picture up?

So that one, think that's what there's all this. It almost runs that way in the other direction. yeah, so I was kind going across, I noticed that it went across southern England, just the way that I drew the line. So you can think of these alignments, it's almost like a gun site, right? So you have your origin, which is where our platform was. You can see them in some of the previous pictures. It's our big kind of wooden structure there. think the south-facing chamber one that you had, you can kind of see in the background.

Thank

Speaker 3 (22:11.982)
That's the origin. used to be two beehive structures there that actually marked the kind of the starting point or the center point for the site. And then you go out to the monolith and use as your second point of reference for the alignments. So as we're going across, I just use those points and just kind of blindly drew it from there. And when I went across towards, you know, ended up being over towards England, you know, I of kept zooming in further. I'm like, that's, that's interesting. It's kind of, it's near, I know, know roughly where Stonehenge was. I know exactly.

just looking at from a high level view, but I kept zooming in further and further and it went right across the main complex. It was almost too good to be true at that point because it was coincidental. As we kept drawing that line, because obviously that piqued my interest, I think I showed you that day, I was like, you ever seen this? You ever know about that?

You know, we kind of kept going further. Like later in the summer, we started looking at some other links too. And it keeps going further. It goes actually over towards Lebanon and there's a few other, you know, over in the Middle East. And there's a number of other sites that it falls near as well. So it kind of, if you keep going along the line further and further, they call like a great circle. You know, if you want around the world that way. Yeah, goes right over Stonehenge. So that was very interesting. You know, it's kind of hard to say exactly, you know, what the

the significance is specifically if that's either if it is coincidental or if there's something to it or and if there is something to it what is you know, what does that actually mean? Right? So yeah, that was right. Yeah, you know, and is it is a kind of a cause or effect thing too, right? So that was something we kind of looked at later on was, you know, is it if it was intentional? Is it you know, just a very impressive

You know, know surveying, you know, did they use astronomy? know, how would that have been? Done in that case, right? Is it is it possible that maybe just for navigational purposes? Maybe that's just where they happen to land if you you know, one thing I was looking at was You know if you happen to follow constant reference points radio the stars or the Sun every day and you happen to go at a certain speed I think it was you know, it was like around one mile an hour or so on like an average or a little bit less than that

Speaker 1 (24:15.084)
Yeah, how is it possible?

Speaker 3 (24:35.104)
every day and you follow it you would go from England to around where we were too. So it's so cool. Yeah, so it's like I don't you know that's definitely there's still a lot of open ends to that whole thing if there's actually a connection there but it definitely an interesting find for sure. Yeah.

I love that. Let's bring it back to North America. Do you guys have any theories, anything that leads you to believe what culture, what civilization was a part of this?

Well, I think, you know, that's still somewhat of an open topic too, obviously. I mean, a lot of the influence seems to be more European, right? So we look across the pond as well for that, both in how the site's been built, even the tooling, the construction, we found inscriptions on the site as well. there's... So to that, can probably answer the better than me on that

what are this all about?

Yeah, especially this, you know, the style of the constructors, the orientation, everything looks so similar. So from Western Europe, Mediterranean, maybe, you know, even from Africa into the New World, you know, but the inscriptions, yeah, some of these stones are found back in the 60s, you know, back in 67, one was found in front of a chamber called the Chamber of Ruins and in 69, another one was found there. And then a third one was found right near the entrance of this particular chamber.

Speaker 1 (26:02.542)
They were put on display for years in our museum as unknown mockings. But in 1975, a gentleman from Harvard University, Dr. Barry Fell, a native of New Zealand, went to school in Edinburgh, Scotland, and he taught at Harvard University for a couple of decades. And he was an epigraphist, a study, a studier of, you know, he was an expert, I guess, on ancient inscriptions, you know. And he could read about 15 ancient scripts, and he could speak like seven modern languages.

And Bill Berryfell came up, he looked at some of the stones we had previously found, and then we found a few more because we started really looking for these markings on stones. In the meantime, these are found all over New England too. Vermont probably has the most inscriptions of any state in New England. And the inscriptions actually go all the way out to the Port Colorado, near the Panhandle of Oklahoma. And Texas, it's loaded with these inscriptions too.

And they're in South America too. And what Berryfell said at our site, we had three types of inscriptions. There were Phoenician, and then there was Libyan from Northern Africa, and then there was Celtic, Oum, or people sometimes pronounce it Ogem. I used to pronounce it Ogem, but it's Oum. And they're all found on our site. But Berryfell felt that they were from the Iberian Peninsula, Spain and Portugal, just like Columbus jumped off to the new world from Spain, near, I believe it was near

which is a Phoenician city, an ancient Phoenician city. They had a few of them there. But he said it was a melting pot of Phoenicians, Libyans, and Kelterans, Spain and Portugal. And I've been to Spain before, although I didn't get to some of the cool megalithic sites. They have some of the most amazing megalithic sites in Europe, actually. And Portugal, too. But he identified the script as coming from there because of the style of it and making it to the New World, both North, Central, and South America.

And so it's not just our site, but it's more widespread than that. It's even in Canada, up in Alberta, Canada on the Milk River. There's inscriptions that look like they're I'm also right out to the West Coast. So that might be the link to the old world besides the style of the structure, the orientation of the structures, the inscriptions and Berryfell also identified. I forget how many place names in New England, the mountains, rivers.

Speaker 1 (28:22.318)
and gorges and that kind of thing. They're not only Native American, but they're also like ancient Celtic, if you will, you the same word, but with the same meaning on both sides of the ocean. So it's either a lot of coincidences, misidentifications of these words, and Barry fell out for lunch, or he's got something going. And so by 1976, he had already been investigating this whole thing before he was introduced to our site in 75. He was already working on this for many men in the 60s too.

So his book came out called America BC on our bicentennial year. And he gets into the bicentennial of the United States, our founding and everything. But he goes on to say, maybe this land has a much more ancient connection to the old world than we think, before the Vikings even. Wow. And in 1980, he wrote book, in another book, I think in 81 or 82, they were called Bronze Age America and Saga America as a follow up to America BC.

And he had a group of over 1200 researchers called the Epigraphic Society. And he had the Western Epigraphic Society still running today in the West after all these years. He passed away in 1994. He updated America, BC. In fact, I was on the phone with him. Kelsey was probably three and a half or four years old the last time I spoke to him. And then he passed away. He moved to San Diego towards the end of his life after leaving Harvard because he

He needed San Diego for the weather, for his health, I guess. So he moved out there like a lot of people. Nice, nice weather there. And so, yeah, he was really huge in this whole thing because he raised a lot of controversy, a lot of arguments, a lot of people not liking him, you know, because of what he's saying about old world visitations to the new world from Africa, Mediterranean from Europe, too, know, coming into the new world. So.

Okay, I'm just I'm gonna make sure that I'm following along with the timeline, okay? Carvings or writings, right? Okay, so That's on our timeline. That's here In the 1500s. We have the carbon dating. Okay that you found around the structure so we know that it predates this and so all of these new world references between here I mean

Speaker 2 (30:45.388)
this site, it sounds like, has been a part of history forever. Incredible, guys. I love this stuff. That's something else. OK, so have there ever been bones found there on the site?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, we've got a few. So kind of the interesting thing though is the soil in New England is actually very acidic. So we're not going to find bones that are 4,000 years old up in the site or even really probably 1,000 years old. think after just a few hundred years really, that's when they decay. So well, we have found a few up there. Actually, think my dad's finding a picture right now. But yeah, there's things like that.

can be a little bit tough to try to use for dating, other than the fact that we know that's at least a minimum of several hundred years old up on the site for bones.

Man, is I'm just looking through your pictures here and see if I have any of them that I haven't shared here. Let's see, because you go in there. mean, that's that's cool, man. I like this.

Speaker 3 (31:54.574)
Yes, that's our speaking tube right there. I think and that's inside the Oracle chamber so that so when we're talking about the sacrificial table earlier So that that the tube come on the top side of the picture there We can kind of just barely see through to the other side there kind of like the little glimpse of light in the tube That actually comes out right underneath the sacrificial table. So that's Or you know, and that's it Yeah

I saw what y'all meant on that table. I wish I could have zoomed in more. It's got like little grooves in it, almost like it's a draining pan.

Yes, yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Yep.

By the way, the groove just since 2016, it's been looked at and measured before. But for some reason, it never really came out that that groove is not a rectangle as it's been called going back to Mr. Goodwin back in the 1930s. It's actually a trapezoid shape and it's the first trapezoid shape feature that we found on the site. the trapezoid shape is interesting. Since we've been using LIDAR in 2020, which can see down to a centimeter, was a handheld LIDAR.

And fact, the gentleman was just up at our site. He's from Connecticut. He's doing sites all over the Northeast, including Brazil. He's doing mine ruins down in Brazil. He's a land state architect with a master's degree. He approached us five years ago to maybe do 15 or 16 acres that Kelsey mentioned where the alignments are, you know. And he did. And he had a process that it took him 600 hours to process the data. But we look at we gave us the hard drive. And if you look at it very carefully, you can see a lot of the site, the chambers, the floor plan.

Speaker 1 (33:29.558)
is actually trapezoid, not rectangular or square with 90 degree corners. There's two chambers that have that feature. And then there's two other structures that don't have roofs. It's once called the courtyard or the megaron. And in the 1800s, a wooden house sat over there and the house we believe has moved down the street and it's sitting down near our parking lot entrance today. But it was rectangular. Of course, it would be, you know. But what it sat over was a trapezoid courtyard.

and it had wide sill, so it accommodated a rectangular structure. And then there's a little niche near the sacrificial table, a little alcove, I'll call it, and it doesn't have a roof either, and it has like two little niches. We all thought that was the animal pen, you know, and actually would be, yeah, it's right to the left of that standing stone. Yeah, and he can't see it well. You can see it in the picture, but you can't see the shape of it.

worth anything in that picture, but it actually is a trapezoid shape too. So we're finding a repeating trapezoid and there's a chamber in Plastown, New Hampshire that we feel is related to us. And last year we got in it and we measured the inside of it, both ends, and it's a trapezoid too. And this trapezoid shape does exist in some of the English stone structures, but it does exist in doorways and windows in Peru and down in Mexico, which we've been to Mexico a few times.

So the trapezoid shape may be another piece of the evidence that it's not some colonial or post-colonial construction, you the whole site, you know. Yeah. Yeah, that's nine inches narrower at the top than it is at the bottom. And that was a discovery nine years ago. You're like, wow.

I see what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (35:12.14)
Intentional trapezoid not just shoddy workmanship, so right

Right, that's the point. yeah, right. It was a swap in this.

So, okay, I guess there's serpentine walls, is that right? Yeah. like, just talk to me about some of the workings of the structures themselves, you know?

Yeah, well, it's 2016. I retired and I started spending more time up there. I usually worked a four day trip for the airlines and then I'd come home and fix things at home and then fix things over there.

Yeah, we'll trade off here

Speaker 1 (35:51.47)
Yeah, we'll check it out. You should have find something there. The serpent walls were brand new in 2016. We had no idea that we had anything like that. And I was out riding over to where he was living at my dad's after my dad passed in 09. And I was kind of heading over that direction. And I saw a wall that I'd seen many times about 60 feet off the trail. And these trails were used for snowshoeing in the winter and for ATV and then snowmobiling for us, for the family and our staff to get around the property.

And I said, wow, that wall looks weird today. So I walked 60 feet off the trail, you know, left the ATV behind. And when I got over to it, I looked at it, I well, this is interesting. It's not an outcropping of bedrock. It's only maybe 27, you know, 30 feet long, I thought at the time. And it seemed to me it had like this rock head, you know, on one side of it. And then it tapered down. It actually went from a certain height, maybe almost three feet down to the ground. You know, it tapered right down. And at the end of it were tapered down.

It was actually a rectangular stone with round corners about three feet in length. And I believe that was a tail. I'm looking at it going, am I seeing a serpent or snake here in this wall? You know, the whole thing shaped like that. And I just stood back and then I walked around it and I got back and looked at it again. like, I think I got a snake wall, you know? I'm like, I never heard of a serpent wall, you know? I showed it after that. I told people about it. I was kind of excited. I showed some people it and they came away with a kind of an impression that I think you might be right.

After that, I found a couple more that year. And we went to a meeting in Connecticut down near, right in Groton, Connecticut, not far from that North Stonington town I mentioned. And a gentleman from that town actually had lived there 30 years and he wrote a book. He writes for Yankee Magazine, which I mentioned earlier, he's a freelance writer and photographer. And he also writes about New England fishing villages and other things about New England.

He lived there 30 years and he goes, you know, I've been living here 30 years by 2016. And he goes, I've been told all these things, even in his backyard, are all farmers constructions and it's hilly, swampy. It's very treacherous, harsh terrain there. And the soil is not really arable for growing crops. There are historic buildings there, we know that. But he goes, this is not a place where you want to do any kind of agriculture or even raising the animals. It's just very, very rough. It's a lot of bare bedrock. It's just...

Speaker 1 (38:14.114)
So he eventually put this book together called Ceremonial Stonework. And when I picked up the book before he spoke at this meeting in the spring of 2017, I said, wow, this book is really interesting. I'd never saw it before. it just came out. 270 photographs, 8,000 structures. I went, that must be the whole Northeast. Well, it turns out it was this town in our Stonington. we grew up with this stuff. I knew Thompson, Moodis, Connecticut, Danbury, Connecticut, Groton.

have structures plus other sites, but I never heard of not Stonington having any. And it turned out 8,000. And what he did is he broke the structures into 25 categories of structures. A serpent wall would be one, for instance. A chamber like you have on the screen might be another. And so when you read it, he's got 400 serpent walls there. And he starts showing pictures, of the 400, like a couple dozen. like, that's what we got. And that was an eye opener. And by then, we had already found what I thought were about six or seven.

serpent walls and then others started finding these serpent walls on the hilltop too and today we have 16 and it's possible that the serpent walls might be inspired by the constellation Draco. Draco is kind of a serpent, dragon-shaped constellation in the northern hemisphere. One of its stars is called Thuban or Alpha Giconis. It's not the brightest star even though it's Alpha Giconis. Four thousand years ago that star was the Pole Star.

And we have one of our alignments is the true north alignment. Today it aligns with Polaris, the end of the Little Dipper. But 4,000 years ago, the Earth's axis was pointing at Thuban. And that star stayed put where everything else went around it. So Thuban would have rotated during the course of the evening. And the Egyptians were using that star too, looking for the Great Pyramid and the shaft and everything. And so maybe snakes on the ground, maybe even eels or something like that may have inspired people.

as we see here.

Speaker 1 (40:10.956)
And we had to, we do have turtles. So it's big. Yeah. Turtle is big. And even some of the legends, I think we're in the back of a turtle shell, some native Americans across the nation. so the serpent became a big thing. And after that gentleman spoke at that, I talked to his wife, he was surrounded by people and his wife was wonderful. We talked to her and we invited them up and they came up a couple of times, but a lady spoke from Denver and with her two male colleagues by Skype. So I didn't get a chance to talk to her in person.

Charles is next.

Speaker 1 (40:37.934)
There were over 100 people at this meeting, so you really couldn't get your words. you know, on the big screen, a couple of people were able to ask questions to them. But they stayed in Denver. They didn't fly out. she's showing, east of Denver, she's showing cairns, which are piles of rocks like we have at our site and other New England sites. Then she shows a patent of the wall we call the D wall. It looks like the letter D is in delta. And I recognize that wall back in the 70s when I did my diorama. I built a diorama of the property.

back in 1977 and we're looking at all the details. So we got a D wall there, know, it covers, uh, you know, a few thousand square feet, like a letter D she's got them there in North Stonington has them, but she shows that. And then she starts to show her serpent walls out there. And I'm like, that's the same thing, including one had a triangular head, like one of our serpents. I'm like, that's exactly like one of our heads in the serpent wall look very similar. So they were there. And then we found out there in weed California, right by Mount Shaspers. they go from here.

to out there. Isn't it? And there's other wallpans out there that match how is Chevron and zigzag and stuff too.

I mean, it's just fascinating. I mean, just to think that there's so many similar things in different parts of the world. And it's not like they were just turning on a TV and be like, we'll build that here too.

Right exactly yeah, they didn't have this what we're doing right here. You know like that kind of thing yeah, so

Speaker 2 (41:57.74)
Okay, so what is the megalithic yard there at the property? What is what is

That's another thing when I was working on my diorama back in 77 in college. We went up and did a few more measurements just so I can make the diorama a little more accurate. And we were already aware of a thing called the megalithic yard. And a megalithic yard is 3.32 feet, 3.73 feet. It's 32.64 inches. It's also 83 centimeters.

And so we were already aware of this measurement and how many inches it was and how big it was. And we went up there and were playing around with a tape measure and we found out it seemed to be something that could fit a lot of our structures. We weren't certain at the time and I was still doing flying lessons and going to college, doing all of that at once and then guiding at this museum. So we kind of let it go, but it was always on our mind that we might have a megalithic yacht used in the construction of this site.

And if we go back to 90 years ago, Mr. Goodwin, I mentioned earlier, his foreman in the early days from 37 to about 1940 was a gentleman named Roscoe Whitney. He was an MIT engineer, and he knew how to measure things, of course. And he was working on the site. And he said at the time, I've looked at the height, width, and depth of these structures. And he goes,

they don't conform to the imperial measurements of inches, feet, yards, or even old rods. goes, I don't know what these people were using. He goes, either they didn't give a damn about linear measurements or they knew nothing about them. And he went on to describe what he did. even 90, almost 90 years ago, he was onto the fact that maybe they weren't using our English measurements or even metric or anything like that. Kelsey and I have done a bunch of measuring on that. Even the groove on the table.

Speaker 1 (43:51.276)
The bottom of the groove is 1.5 megalithic yards wide. The top is 1.25. The length on each side of that groove is 2 megalithic yards wide. If you do it in English, in inches, it comes out all sorts of what?

Yeah, it's not really closely viable, all the ratios when you're actually using that unit of measurement seem to track out on those sites.

seems to. And the guy that found that actually discovered that's Dr. Alexander Tom of Scotland, amazing guy in World War I. He was working for the Haplin Aircraft Company. He was an engineer. He was at Glasgow by World War II. Before World War II, they had him working at Oxford, University of Oxford, and he retired in 62 from there. And so he left Scotland for quite a few years and returned to his home eventually. And the engineering department in Oxford, I believe, is still named after him today.

He was considered the father of acuastronomy, the word you like. And that started back in the 30s, and he lived up near Dunlop, Scotland. And we visited him back in 82, and we had supper with he and his son, Dr. Archibald, Tom, another doctor of engineering, who was very much a part of this, and a grandson and the rest of the family, the wives and everything. And he had a cool wh-

Wood stove was shaped like one of the Easter Island heads, you know, I thought that was pretty cool I always remember that they had a compound a nice compound there and he had all these things he invented there But in World War two is working on wind tunnels to low speed and high speed in the high speed eventually later in time after World War two You know going into the 50s and 60s He actually perfected it because it out all such a harmonic Kelsey would understand the engineering but all vibrations They had a he had to do things to fix that tunnel, but they used it on the SST Concord, you know

Speaker 1 (45:36.962)
were testing in the 50s and 60s before it flew in the late 60s, 69 or whenever they first flew the Concorde. So he's just an amazing guy and his son was too and he'd go out and he measured sites all over Scotland, over 800 sites. And then he started working in England, Wales, he got into France and also Ireland. And he's the one that came up with the megalithic yard. But there's also a megalithic, do call it, fathom, which is a half a megalithic yard. And then there's a megalithic.

which is two and a half megalithic yards. And then there's a megalithic inch based on 100 to the megalithic rod. It gets kind of your eye stuck. I kind of get that the memory, so that's good. And we're finding that all, we're finding it at other sites. I think a lot more work has to be done at our site. But a Dr. Klok from BYU, he did an article all about measuring systems starting in South America.

No, trust me, it's double math.

Speaker 1 (46:29.92)
in central like in Mexico and then southern United States, some of the mound builders. And you showed a picture of poverty point, I think before.

We're going to show these in a little bit. Yeah, I want to do that. Do you want me to that up now?

If you like, sure. Yeah. And we were there last year as a matter of fact. But he found two different measuring systems. I forget what the second one was because my eyes focused on one of them was 83 centimeters and there's Poverty Point, Louisiana. It's an amazing site. But he's finding that the megalithic yad or actually this 83 centimeter is being used. I think some sort of increments of it.

My friend lives near the Grave Creek Mountain in West Virginia and he sent me though that article I said you can throw at 83 centimeters into inches or feet or whatever because no I said he comes out to a megalithic yard 32.64 inches I said that's a megalithic yard. So I don't know if dr. Clark realizes that you know But but that's like there it goes back over for you'll see different dates on poverty point going back as early as 4000

It has those concentric circles and they do a wonderful job. They take you on a tram there. You can take a tram ride around with a guide. We had two guides on and they make a couple stops. What you may not notice is at the top of that circle, there's a construction of mounds. You can see it there. And to give you a size, the size of that little mound, and we have that in our world map in our museum and it looks awesome. We've had it there since we did our new museum back in 94.

Speaker 1 (48:02.566)
And I never noticed that little mountain there. That mountain there is something like 600 by 700 feet. It's a bird effigy, they think, at the very top of that circle.

And it's apparently aligned with stars.

It is astronomically aligned, think. Yeah, exactly. And part of it's missing today, I think, due to the water. And the river's changed course. the water you see there is not part of the main river, which I'm trying to remember if it's a Mississippi or a branch of it. But it's changed courses. But that may have been a complete circle, although I think they're still arguing whether that was a complete circle. When you see those little ridges in between the ridges, they believe was water in there, like little canals.

and you visit it today, it's like, really? When you visit it, it's hard to even see that today, because it's so filled in. But what a complex. It's an amazing complex. It's pretty neat. They think that it may have been part of a copper trade coming down from the Great Lakes. Isle Royale, some of the most pure copper in the world, and it goes right into Michigan.

Let's see.

Speaker 1 (49:10.728)
And some people suggest that if there's an old world contact, people are bringing copper down and they had the Bronze Age going on in Europe, know, in the Mediterranean and in Northern Africa. And you want to mix copper with tin, you know, and you have to have a tin source. And they think that came from Britain, know, Cornwall. But the Phoenicians went up there as a thought in one of the theories. don't know. But copper from the United States leaving here and then going across the Gulf into the Atlantic, going over to the old world. It's one of those

Sounds far-fetched. Some people believe it, some people don't believe it, some people don't know what to believe, know, guess, you know, but it's interesting anyway. That may have been the purpose of that particular.

Yeah, and one of the oldest structures in the United States. Who would have thought it's in Louisiana? Yeah, another one here. Let me switch us to Wyoming. This is Big Horn Medicine Wheel, another structure that I know you gentlemen are familiar with. Not quite as old as Louisiana, but again, aligns with solstices and stars.

It is summer solstice, yeah, and three star alignments. Exactly. Yeah. You see the spokes on there too. I think there's supposed to be 28 spokes and it represents 28 ribs of the bison, 28 days of the month. You know, you can average a month like that. And also the women's cycle too. But the three charns and they align with cirrus and I'm going to mispronounce them cirrus, aldebaran and uh, rydul. I think they're stars. And one of the stars actually is a forecast of the summer solstice coming up. They don't have the equinox of the winter solstice there. Kelsey was about

three, I think. he not remember some of it, it was not a place. It a little bit fuzzy. He was very young, but he went up there. It's really cool. They have a chain link fence around it like we do too. You know, it's all such a little offerings place there even today. They're above. Well, I don't know what the numbers today, but when I read the book last, when we were out there, it was about 15 others. They go up to Saskatchewan, Canada, and some are similar to that. And some are little different shapes. So that's not the only.

Speaker 1 (51:07.476)
medicine wheel out west. They go into candida too, you know, so.

is incredible. let's come closer to home here. got this is Massachusetts, right? The Upton Chamber built by likely Native Americans.

Yeah, that's a question of question. Native Americans have been in New England now, they think 13,000 years to be the first candidate. But again, there is a when you get into that chamber, it's a 14 foot tunnel you go into. It is a megalithic yard wide inside. It's like 32 and a half inches wide. I'm like, that's a megalithic yard, know. But that's the average width of it, you know.

but that looks like an igloo inside. a long, long entrance. have to kind of bend over. I don't think they've taken the floor down to its original floor. It's silted in. maybe it's, you know what I mean? That kind of thing. But on the left side of that are late David Stewart Smith who died in 2016, just when I was finding those serpents. And David was with us for 40 years, as I mentioned, he was doing the repair on the left side of that chamber there.

And they did an OSL date back in 2011. It was one of the first ones I heard about in the University of Colorado. Oh, no, I'm sorry, not the University. was USGS in Colorado, United States Geological Service in Colorado, actually does OSL dating too. It took five years to get the results back, and they got it just before David died. And the results were, again, 1,400 AD. That wall was already there.

Speaker 1 (52:45.154)
the cynics or skeptics say, wow, these are all built by a bunch of farmers two or 300 years ago. This thing goes back before Columbus. And it, you know, is the methodology they used in the dating correct? Is the dating process itself, is it correct? know, but they're using it. Brookhaven's using it. University of Washington's using it. Oxford was using it. So it seems to be an accepted method. And it shows that that chamber was there before Columbus ever launched, you know, from Spain to get here, you know, so.

That is fascinating. I mean, and you got all over North America, these kinds of drawings on rocks, I mean, all over the country. And it's just, it's fascinating whenever you see these, think. It's just that connection. It's just right there. I just love that stuff. So another mystery, and this is something that got the attention.

of Thomas Jefferson himself was the serpentine mounds in Ohio. I mean look at that.

Yeah, Kelsey and I were there. We were there. Two years ago,

Yeah

Speaker 2 (53:50.51)
How cool is this? I, yes, it's cool, but I want to know things. I want to know when exactly they were built.

That's well that's a in 2023 right after Kelsey and I and because I mentioned he did rally racing and I was right there but he after the after we left there Think about a two months later They made that a UNESCO World Heritage Site and as well as some of the other Ohio sites now They think they're about 10,000 mounds in Ohio including effigy mounds like this in pyramidal mounds and conical shape and then geometrically shaped ones, you know shaped like squares and

Some are six-sided. There's round ones like Newark and Chillicothe. You have the amazing geometrical shaped mounds. Some of the biggest earth mounds in the world. But that serpent mounds really famous. if right side of it, you can see that would be the head. And it looks like it's an egg inside of its mouth, maybe, you know? And then it meanders. It goes 1,500 and I'm sorry, 1,350 feet to the tail, which is a spiral.

Its head is actually orientated towards the summer solstice sunset. The body where it kind of...

Each one is kind of aligned as well, right? each one's kind of aligned.

Speaker 1 (55:09.098)
equinox and went to solstice. So it does the Four Seasons. And also they think that Draco inspired this particular serpent. They say it's the biggest serpent effigy in the world. And I would say that's true, except we have the stone wall that's 2550 feet starts at the watch house. We believe that is probably, well, that's probably the biggest one I've ever heard of. It's a thousand feet longer than this. So this would be

If that is so, and I know they may not like this, but if that is so, they have the biggest serpent mound effigy in the world. we have the biggest, you know, and ours is a stone wall. By the way, that one does sit on a stone foundation on part, at least part of it's under a stone foundation. I don't know if the whole thing is, we saw that in the museum.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. They actually had like a kind of excavation display there where you guys see how it was built from, know, almost like a cross section of the mound. That was pretty neat. A lot of time and effort. Engineering went into that. Just the way it was laid out.

Engineering.

Speaker 2 (56:15.438)
Did I understand y'all correctly? So the head points to the summer solstice sunset. I hear that right? Yeah. Okay. And you're saying that the other, I guess, kinks along the way. Yeah. Yeah. Are also pointing to the sunsets for the... That is...

I think Rise and Set, yeah, for the equinoxes. you can actually pull up on, your listeners could pull up on Google, just Google it, know, and they'll, astronomically, they can ask the question, how does it align astronomically? And I think those, have actually nice maps I've seen on, you know, on Google and stuff like that. So you can actually see maps of where the alignments are. I don't know if it has the lunar, I'm trying to remember if it has any lunar alignments, but Newark, Ohio is actually a lunar observatory.

and it's a great serpent mound. Not the great serpent mound, it's a great circle mound, I guess it is. It's a great circle. And then there's the other shapes too. And this is the year of the, what they call the lunar major standstill moonrise and moonset, north and south. This year is where the moon goes through its extreme limits. And in nine years from now, goes through the miners, which will be around 2035. We have the lunar alignments.

Newark, Ohio has the alignments, Karnak in France and Stonehenge. So people in different parts of the world can actually see that thing happen this year. It's pretty cool. It is kind of an important, then you gotta wait another 18 and a half years to see it again. So if you blink your eyes, but it lasts all year actually, actually, cause the moon's orbits tilted five degrees to the earth orbit. That's why it happens, you know?

So hang on a second, we have a lunar eclipse of some sort tonight.

Speaker 1 (57:54.222)
Tonight, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be a medicine. It's at like 2 30 to 3 30 during the max. It starts at 11 something Eastern time. I guess probably your time, maybe 10 30. If you have clear skies, you can watch it tonight. We've had people wanting to come up, but you know, it's the middle of the night for us. So we didn't open for that. But we were here last year for the solar and we had about 600 to 700 people show up. was really cool. Yeah. And that in Texas too, you had a good in Texas.

turn out.

Speaker 2 (58:21.422)
went right over us man I tell you that was a treat if you ever have a chance to be underneath uh uh yeah totality of us

Fatality there, yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:35.534)
95.

Thank you.

Speaker 1 (58:40.256)
The White Mountains, New Hampshire, and the Green Mountains of Vermont. Good place.

I'll tell you, we had cloudy skies all morning and about a half an hour before...

I think that's the same for us too, right?

Yeah, was the weather. Yeah.

Yes, we got so lucky. so Dennis, you and I had talked briefly when we were setting up this conversation that the Georgia Guidestones came up and there they are. And I don't know what to think of these things. I have a theory on who it is or who created them, who put them in place. I don't know if I'm alone in that, but

Speaker 1 (59:18.286)
I don't think you are.

I think all signs point to Ted Turner.

You know, I heard that too, and it's very, very interesting. yeah, that one, that one, because I saw a video on that recently, you know, like two weeks ago, coincidentally, it was on one of the I don't know which, which streaming thing I saw, it was actually really interesting, went up in 1980, and who the quarry families, know, the families around the quarry that were approached do all of this down there, and the town that's located in.

Yeah, and then I guess in 22 it was blown up and then I didn't realize until two weeks ago that they actually removed it completely. didn't repair it, they just removed the whole thing.

Right. So here's the actual, let me see if I can get this to play. This is the, oh gosh, I don't need audio here. Hang on. All right. So they see the, see the figure headed toward the guide stones. then the next thing you know, you're going to get yourself an explosion here. Again, like you said, this is 2022 as you said, and then he runs away and then wait for it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27.886)
And, well, gonna be a lot of waiting for it. There we go.

Yeah, yeah, I don't like to see I don't know what the guide stones are some people thought they were evil some people thought there but any event that's destruction right? Private property and it's in his vandalism. It's just vandalism. Yeah, you know, it's like though may not agree with it But you know the go do that just it's I don't like I don't like that whatsoever They should I hope they catch the person actually

It's still private property, right?

Speaker 2 (01:00:53.166)
So here we go, got, in case you're not familiar with the Georgia Guidestones, here's some of the carvings on it. Maintain humanity under, what was it? Is it 500 million?

Yeah, half a billion, yeah.

Yeah, it's gonna be.

Perpetual balance with nature. Look, I grew up, I'm an Atlanta Braves fan. Okay, so the owner of Ted Turner. I watched TBS growing up. I've been exposed to a lot of the things that Ted Turner said. That's why before, like way back when, that was the original rumor back in Atlanta. I mean, you got the, when you re-through this, it sounds like stuff he would say. Guide reproduction wisely, improving fitness and diversity. Unite humanity with a living new language. Rule, passion, faith, tradition and all things.

with tempered reason. Anyhow, who knows who's responsible for it? But again, they went in and they, you know what I meant to keep scrolling, hang on a second. They eventually, after the damage was done, I think it just became too dangerous to keep them in place. And actually they came back in here. I shouldn't have closed it yet. Hang on. crap. Anyway, here is the-

Speaker 1 (01:02:02.702)
Commandments kind of thing, guess, like 10 different.

Almost like a new world, like a new age, Ten Commandments. Exactly. That's kind what it became. Shoot, where's my tab? Oh, here we go. Here we go. So here's the actual, when they went in and destroyed...

I haven't seen that either. okay. wow. So they had an excavator there knocking it down. looks, wow. Yeah, boy. And now when you look at the pictures, there's nothing but a field there, I think, you know, when you Google it, think, yeah.

rid of them.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37.954)
like the Griswold's European vacation there.

yeah, like your Griswolds and Chevy Chase knocking down Stonehenge in England. Put it in reverse and bumped into it. Kind of thing, know? It kind of looks like that.

It's so true! So there you go. No more Georgia guides.

to that.

Yeah, that's a shame anything like that, you know in in all vandalism some of our sites in New England too when you go on to a group called NERA, New England Antiquities Research Association, it was started by my dad in 64 as a nonprofit still going strong today two meetings here and I mentioned how we were at a meeting in 2017 in Connecticut. That's the group. They sometimes they won't list where some of these 800 different sites are. They might give a county or an area because some are in private property.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24.526)
Or if they're even on public property, they try to do that because these sites are kind of sitting by themselves and they can be suspect or suspect. What's the word I'm to say? Yeah, subject to vandalism, know, either spray painting, leaving trash behind and sometimes knocking things over, you know, and sometimes it's just juvenile. And sometimes it's like the George. Somebody did that because they didn't like what that thing was. think that kind of thing.

And you know, some people get things in the head and you just can't change their mind. so Vandalism is a thing and not West. We've been to Chaco Canyon and one of my friends who lives in Aruba, but she's been out there and she does podcasts too. know, a lot of the Hudson Valley structures like because she's from New York originally, she got into the, well she got into the meteor business and then she eventually moved to Aruba to retire now and there are stone structures down there, she said Dennis-

Chackle. Yeah, and it's kind of cool. She has her own website and everything stones bones in the paranormal which are kind of she's probably about 8,000 followers She's been to our site many times she likes but she goes, know when you're gonna chuckle there's an area she goes when I went the first time she goes you could actually see the picture Well, there's petroglyphs which are the carvings and the picture graphs which are the paintings and she goes when I went back there she goes it was all covered over I think she said with concrete and she asked one of the Park Rangers what was going on, you know

And they said, these things are selling on the black market. get in here after, and Chaco's in the middle of nowhere. know, if there's nobody watching every minute, people can get in there and they were taking some of these ancient, precious things, you know, and stealing them from their cell or to sell, you know. And it happens in other places in the world too. So my point is, know, these sites are kind of subject to vandalism. And even if it's just kids playing around, they can cause damage. We have a glacial.

Yeah, your site was subject if I remember correctly to what like there were some quarrymen that showed up there during the Victorian era and took.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25.762)
Yeah, exactly. Maybe they may have been there for two different periods of time and it wasn't done out of like they weren't malicious, you know, right? you're just taking stones away and you know, we've had the other type to where people are up here trying to cause them like the guides not as to the extent that they did but yeah, they wanted to recycle some of the stonework for local building projects and the

Gentleman that was up there was a shoemaker and they call him a farmer. His name is Jonathan Patty. He was a fifth generation shoemaker. The family had an extensive part of his site. They actually go back to 1734 buying a piece of the property and then 10 years later buying another piece of the property and then building a house up there sometime after 1750. And the house we think today is down the street as I mentioned, you know.

But the Patties, he was a tax collector for three years, a shoemaker for his life. And he also was a road surveyor. And at one time for six years, he took in the town paupers from 1831 to 1837. He was paid by the town of Salem to take care of these people that could no longer take care of themselves. So he knew the tax laws and he knew that it was a quarry tax. And if he quarried the stones or brought somebody in to quarry the stones, he had to pay a tax and he'd lose a little bit of money.

But the stones were already quarried by the ancient builders. So what they did is they came and stripped some of the structures. No quarry tax had to be paid and you kept, just keep a little more of the money, I guess. And so there was a period of time when part of the site was taken away and we think a third of it's missing today. There's only 16 drill holes from that time. So the original builders didn't use metal tools to quarry shape the stones, but in the 1800s, they used a little star drill, drill little holes, to preparate the stone and they put in little,

tapered guides of metal and then a plug and they would split stones out like the plug and feather they call it. And that started around 1780, that technology that was used on our site probably in the mid 1800s. And so part of our site is missing today, but thankfully we think probably 70 % of it's still there. But if you go to Abebury and Stonehenge, near Stonehenge, Abebury is one of the biggest megalithic sites. Kelsey's been to it. Part of the town of Abebury, this site is so huge, it's a bank of ditch, which reminds me of the Newark.

Speaker 1 (01:07:44.942)
Bank and Ditch Great Circle. It's the same diameter, by the way, on both sides of the ocean. It's very, very close. There are stone, the difference is the one in England has stone monoliths. And part of that's missing today. And you're like, why is that missing? And you look at a town that's built there. It's so big a town, little villages there with a red, they have a pub there, know, they think it's a red lion inn. They have all these cool things there. Several hundred years ago, they decided to start knocking down the monoliths. And it was almost like a tradition. You would actually tip them into a big fire pit.

put water on them to thermo shock them, they would beat them, crack them and use the smaller stones to build their buildings. So they were destroying an ancient megalithic site to build a more modern village several hundred years ago, which is still there today. It's absolutely beautiful. It's kind of a shame in a way, you know, to destroy a more ancient site, build a more modern site. And that does happen though.

I we've had a few of those too, right?

Yeah.

So what we do today in our own cities, they've been doing for a long time. So at the site today, and again, I want to direct people, it's, I had it written down, guys. What's your website again? It was,

Speaker 1 (01:08:42.658)
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:08:54.006)
It's us. Yes. StonehengeUSA.com.

Don't hinge USA.com. up there. It's in North Salem.

sail New Hampshire yep save us over the border yeah

Not Salem, Massachusetts.

People admit that get met that mixed up though because I'll come up looking for the witches up here like well I I'm other stuff

Speaker 1 (01:09:12.91)
Yeah, Where do you this Salem?

It's not far away though, it's only about a little less than an hour from us.

That's what I love about it up there is everything is so close with an unknown. Unlike to all dear lord yes.

I like Texas, right? Texas is huge. Only eight hours on the road.

Right. StonehengeUSA.com. There's still research, right? You guys have stuff going on today. What all is happening there outside of just being able go and see it?

Speaker 1 (01:09:42.765)
Well, we did the OSL and the results came out just a couple of years ago. We'd been doing lidar, both the handheld lidar, and we just did a complete 110-acre lidar with a gentleman. And I talked to him yesterday, as a matter of fact. And he's from Salem, his company is, but they're based from Maine all the down to Florida. So it's kind of a big company. And they've been around since 66. And he visited a site back in November with his girlfriend. And when he came down,

My wife had waited on him when he went up. When he came down, hadn't met him yet. And he came over to me and he I'm really interested in this site. And he goes, this site really has a lot of features on it, all over it. It's pretty expensive. And I'm really impressed by the stonework. Are you interested in doing more lidar? And I said, are we? I said, of course.

And he goes, well, that's what our business does. But they also do ground penetration radar. have all that. They do big construction sites. And they use this for that type of thing, for planning and mapping and everything. So he just explained a little bit about his company. I'm like, oh my gosh. And I told him about our Tom Elmore, who already did the 16 acres with his handheld. He goes, that's perfect. He goes, because our new equipment can do about what his equipment does. Five years ago, drone could only, Tom's radar can see down to a centimeter.

Every square meter has 300,000 points. It has 16 lasers, goes up 80 meters, one high definition camera. It's an amazing unit. Still very, very good today, even though it's five years old now. But the drone and the airplane light are, you said the drone is only four to 800 square points per square meter versus 300,000. So the fidelity on the handheld was amazing and it still is today.

But the drone wasn't very good five years ago. It very blurry imaging. And we have some of that that the US government did with airplanes. And he goes, the aircraft is even less. So now what he's already done is he used his, he had a $90,000 drone with a, he's photogrammetry. So it has cameras with a visible spectrum, but he had a LiDAR unit, again, that can see down to about a centimeter, just like Tom's did. And he mapped the entire 110 acres.

Speaker 1 (01:12:03.262)
And he's working on that right now, but he already sent us two files of what the cameras did. He had a high definition camera and a super high definition camera. And he just, we sent the files today because about a month ago, our computer crashed and we lost everything that he sent before. Now he's going to come up and bring us the hard drive and show us how to use this because it maps all the serpent walls, the quarry sites, and it maps everything and the windows too. know, we should see the windows up there. We have 34 of these windows.

And so we're doing that right now. And Doria, the one with the ground penetration radar that was up five years ago, she's a friend of the LiDAR guy, Tom. And she does stuff from, she's near Boston and she does stuff all the way down to New York City. She works for the city of New York City to do stuff for them too. And she's going to be coming on the Equinox. Yep. And she's going to come up and map our underground drainage systems. That's never been done. We have about

I think we have 12 drains, about eight of them are underground, some run 75 feet. They're actually parallel walls. call them bearing walls. They're actually stones with little roof slabs on them. Stones can be various sizes and they go up to 75 feet. And what they were built is to keep the whole site dry from when the snow melts, which we get up here. You don't get down in Texas so much. And rain and it still work today. know, and some of these have been excavated, but we have never mapped the entire drainage system. And we have a couple of structures we

want to be mapped because one of them came down in a hurricane in 1948. And part of the pine stump still there all these years later, over 70 years later, we have the stump. In fact, I should bring a piece of it down to the building. The whole thing fell down during a hurricane in 48, not the 38 hurricane that's very famous. It collapsed the whole structure. And it was written about by Mr. Goodwin. And we're still trying to find photographs. I think we have one photograph of it before it was destroyed.

But our first manager, his name was Dick Elston, his daughter played in that chamber back in 19, before 1948, you know? So we're gonna map that with a radar. It was looked at 30 years ago by another company that manufactures the ground penetration radar right down the street. They moved to Nashville, New Hampshire, about 20 miles from here now. But they were bringing their equipment up back in the 90s and they were showing their customers always from down in Brazil, all in Europe and everything, how to use it on our property. And our archeologist at the time was working with them.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23.138)
And they did map it, but the equipment is so much better today. I think the hardware and software is so much better. So that's what we're going to be doing is ground penetration radar coming up next week.

Yeah, the old stuff, like the, if you've seen Jurassic Park, when they were doing the acoustic reflection testing at the beginning there, that the screen there kind of looked a lot like our old GPR testing.

Yeah,

I like that. So you mentioned something there. when I see these kind of sites, these ancient sites, it's hard for me to picture them in their prop when they were being used for practical purposes, who knows for what purpose, but it's just hard for me to envision them not overgrown, you know, with grass growing over them and stuff. But you just said something there that I think is absolutely fascinating. Clearly,

the intricacies are deep on something like this. Did I hear you correctly? You said that even today the rain is draining the way that they had it set up. mean, that is fascinating.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22.798)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, you know, of them are silted in so that's always a constant kind of maintenance project up on our site, right? But yeah, yeah, I mean that the drains are still active. And yeah, I think the kind of the interesting thing too, you're just we're just pointing out right was, you know, our site, we think at the time it was constructed, there was really no trees up on our hilltop, it was would have been bare, as it's you know, so soil is accumulated over the years, it's provided up nutrients for trees and everything else to grow.

I England, the Sonnage over there, think it was kind of the other way around, right? I think we think that that was more loaded in at the time. So was kind of like a reverse. England's all farmland, or Sonnage is all farmland that's open for the most part. That would have been more a little bit like Barsite would have been more bedrock up exposed at the time. But yeah, there's a lot of drains up there. That was obviously very important for whoever built it. And we can tell if they get clogged up, you can see how important they are when they're not working.

to that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20.256)
Yeah. Wow. That's really fascinating. Okay. So

And they were built before the chambers were. So they were thought of, it was thought of before, you know, chambers, were in the chambers. So they weren't like an afterthought, you know, and they were actually carved through the bedrock too. So we'll have the bedrock carved maybe a few inches wide by a few inches deep. And that's, that's something. How do you carve out bedrock like that?

Yeah, they're under the

Speaker 2 (01:16:39.886)
I was going to say, what kind of tools do you think that they were used for this?

There's a thing called pecking and they wonder if they actually build fires on the bedrock again throw water on it and get it kind of like Thermal shock it, you know and then hit it, you know, it's called there's a name fire It's called there's actually a name for it But you actually beat the rock after heat it and cool it quickly and there's actually yeah, I'm messing it up right now But anyway, they might have done that but some of these are top through the bedrock for many many feet the water collects in them and then they go to the underground part of the drain, know, so it's

kind of sophisticated, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18.92)
Yeah, that's not crazy farmer just up there goofing around building some sort of fall You know what his six husky sons, although that's another one too You know, was always six husky sons help him turns out he had one son that lived into adulthood named Seth and he had another son Jonathan jr And he died in boston three days short of his 18th birthday We don't know why he died in boston, but he was just turning 18 And he did have nine daughters now whether they were husky or not. We haven't been able to establish

I'm going back into the 1800s. Yeah, that Patty and the Patty family. Yeah, it's P a T T E E. Although that's various spellings too. And they came from England.

These previous owners like obviously the stone family is clearly protecting this site and I absolutely love that and appreciate that Do we know? The families that owned it, know in a couple hundred years or so before did they keep records? Did they try to maintain it? Like do we know much about the previous owners?

kind of some yeah the paddy some what yeah I mean

I mean, they more just utilize the site because it was, you know, it seemed like it was pre-existing, right? They used the foundation for the courtyard up there, most likely to build the foundation for their house. after, you know, kind of later on, right, it went to William Goodwin, who was back in the kind of around the turn of the century. And that's kind of like really where the archaeology, the kind of like, I think,

Speaker 2 (01:18:34.227)
wow.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46.254)
That's where really where is more of the understanding the significance of the site started to take place Of course, I think he thought was a little bit more of a modern site But that's yeah, but he was really the first person that was actually coming in thinking that this is more than just kind of you know pile of rocks up there for him to use so

Yeah.

Yeah, so the Patties were just up there living and when they bought the first piece of property, was part of Havel, Massachusetts. And by seven, that was 1734, 1741 New Hampshire and Mass, although New Hampshire really wasn't a state until 1788, was still the New Hampshire, whatever they call that, it was a grant or whatever, but we call it a state today. They settled the boundary dispute with Massachusetts in 1741. So this became no longer part of Havel Mass, it became part of the Salem district.

And nine years later in 1750, it's incorporated as Sale New Hampshire, you know. So the Patties bought 1734, a piece of land while it was out of mass, and then 1744. And then after 1750, Homestack going up in this area. And again, there were shoemakers, you know, and they did other things too, like run a ferry across the Merrimack River, one of the bigger rivers in New England, it's just south of here. And so the Patty family, you know, we have quite a bit of information.

The History of Salem was written in 1907 by a guy named Edgar Gilbert. And in it, he talks about our site as being a, because it's a weird, wonderful site among the soft pines and the rough boulders where weird taros may be woven. And that's a paraphrase. It's much more elegant. He's very poetic kind of, he was a friend of Robert Frost. They worked together south of here at the Mills of Lawrence. Robert Frost, my grandfather had him for a teacher at Pinkerton Academy, but.

Speaker 1 (01:20:27.182)
Edgar Gilbert, you know, he writes about the site and he talks all about the patties and all the other people that settled, you know, sale. But these two Native Americans, they were actually sold this whole region under Pasekonawe, a very famous Native American chief who was beloved by his people and also the English settlers, I thought, respected him highly too. And he gave his blessing and he sold this whole area, which is a couple of towns, including Haverhill.

for three pounds and so many 10 shillings, I think. And that was in 16. We have a date of that actually, like 16, I'm going to say 64. That's probably not the correct date. So it becomes part of Massachusetts, you know, and then eventually part of New Hampshire. And the Patty families are very prominent. worked on the in Salem a hundred years ago. They were working on the trolley system that used to be here. You know, everybody had the trolley system. So Patty's are well known. You know, this Patty street in Salem, the Patty Tavern.

is where Maquis de Lafayette came 100 years ago this year and last year he made his return to United States. was General Washington's 19 year old general and he was involved with the French Revolution. Maquis de Lafayette, like Lafayette, Louisiana is named after him.

Yeah, we just talked about him last week and how more places, let's see, how do I word this? Of all the foreigners, I don't know how to say this, in the United States, there's more Lafayettes than named after any other foreigner. Streets, parks, you name it, Lafayette.

okay.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50.515)
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:21:56.622)
in cities.

Speaker 1 (01:22:01.162)
In San Diego, like North Carolina, Fayette, that's another one. You see Fayette? That is another one. And what an amazing guy. But he had 400 horses. And it was at Jonathan Patty's cousin's tavern in Salem, downtown Salem. And then he's supposed to go to the Adams School up in Derry, where we were from. I mentioned Derry before. It was a girls school. And the girls were all goo goo gaga because he was such a he's like a superstar back then. Amazing. And

So he's three hours late to the girls school up in East Derry Hill. And by the way, Alan Shepard grew up right across the street from there, a first astronaut. lived right across the street from that. But anyway, they think that he may have paid homage, if you will, came over to the Patty House, over to our site and paid respects to the family because Jonathan's dad had died from injuries from the Revolutionary War back in 1778. And there are buttons that were found on a site that are French from

you know, France, you know, and so it's kind of circumstantial, you know, we never quite wow, but he is at the paddies tavern with 400 horses, you know, and then he eventually makes his way up the dairy, but it's possible he came here, we never were able to really completely prove that, you know, he may have come over here to the hill and visited the hill. And he was from France for Connach. And he was a Mason too, you know, I guess he was a, he was, you know, a Masonic member, know, of Masons. When I understand anyway.

No, that is so cool. I think to recap and correct me if I have this wrong, these are ancient structures that it could have been built by Vikings, Venetians, Celts, or the Celtics, right? The Irish Kulde monks. I'm just reading a list of all the theories.

The Mayans the Aztec It could be from anyone, but we know that it is it definitely qualifies as ancient. It's based in North Salem, New Hampshire Yes, don't hinge USA comm take some time when you're up there and stop by and say hello to Dennis and the family and Kelsey and everybody I I Have only been to the Northeast one time

Speaker 2 (01:24:18.07)
And that was last fall. And I can't tell you how upset I am that I didn't know this existed six months ago.

That's the best time of year to come to the foliage, although it gets busy with the hotels, know, and restaurants get kind of busy because a lot of people come in. We get a lot of people from Texas, a lot of people from down south. They fly up here to see the foliage. And if you come after that, the rates go down in, you know, there's more rooms available, but you can actually see more without the leaves on the site. You know, you can see the serpent walls, walls and everything too, which is nice, you know.

That's right. Well, Dennis and Kelsey, thank you so much. Dennis, I almost forgot. I mean, you've been writing books, man. What's going on? How can people get?

So yeah, Kelsey did the you did the forward forward this one this one came out one year ago We actually had a special event on the equinox Scott Walters came into town from the American Earth He comes up here every now and then we had an all-day event with him and my book came out that week So he was selling my book while I was doing my lecture and then did his lecture and then others did their lecture And then we did a an evening thing too. This book came out a year ago It was five years putting this together with my daughter in law

his wife and he did the forward in it. And before that in 2018, my daughter and I put together a souvenir book to replace a 1996 souvenir book and this replaced the 2003 book my dad did with another author, which replaced the 1977 book and the 1946 book I missed a good one, the first researcher. But we've got another book we're working on right now. It'll be all about the stone walls, the serpent walls, the windows. We have 30,

Speaker 1 (01:25:59.726)
five windows. These are holes in the walls with lintels and sills with shutters. And we found those in 2016, the same time I was finding the circuit walls. And these are in North Stonington too. These windows are in the Berkshires and Mass. And so these windows became a big thing too. And in Europe, in England, they call them sole holes. have the same thing over there. But so my new book will be all about the strange stonework. I don't know if that shows some of the

some of the strange stone work, the different, the way the stones are balanced there. So that book will be the same size. It'll be a lot of photographs about more what's outside the main site, you know, and so that's.

All the books are those available at Stonehengeusa.com as well.

Well, on Kindle, I think you can get those on Kindle. Yeah, it's easy to do that than us sending them, know.

You can't forget their

Speaker 2 (01:26:58.574)
Look for his stuff. That's so great guys. I love this so much I can't wait to get up there and see it for myself I'll let you know next time I'm in the area but all the best and thank you for protecting this history for all of us seriously and Get up there and visit Stonehenge USA comm any final thoughts We need to know about the side or anything that we didn't get to today

Well, Keith, if you come up, you know, we might be to do a live podcast from the hill. It's a lot of fun. You know, we could do that if you'd like. Yeah, we got next week, a week from Saturday. We got the equinox coming up and the celebration and everything. And again, we have the 18 and a half year lunar thing. We do drumming circles up there, you know, and we're going to be doing the LiDAR on the equinox. I mean, the ground penetration radar, so maybe we'll have some results from that. So.

There's always something going on up there,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're doing a lot of research and different activities. We have weddings coming up and stuff like that up there, which is nice.

Yeah, it's a site for a lot of different people too, right? So we want to be able to get new groups in the kind of experience the site. So yeah, a lot of events coming up, a lot of things that we're trying out this year. So it's exciting. It's kind of an exciting time to be out there.

Speaker 2 (01:28:08.311)
Thank

Speaker 1 (01:28:12.494)
We get new displays in the building. Kelsey's a work on them when he's not at work, his regular job. Yeah, in a few minutes, his office is a lot of kind of a makeover and all the displays in the music. look really nice.

A few minutes till they get free.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23.886)
displays, lighting, just trying to modernize everything.

In the new technology showing that too, know, so that's kind of cool.

Very cool. Well, you'll know when I'm up there. Thank you so much, guys. Yeah, absolutely. why do I keep? Stonehenge USA.

Thank you, Keith.

Speaker 1 (01:28:41.07)
That's it. That's it. That's Have a nice week. Thank you.

I'll see you guys.